The Rom Interviews


by Kajira Djoumahna, copyright 1999, all rights reserved. No portion of this article may be used for any reason without my permission. This article is published in the March 1999 issue of Jareeda Magazine. Thank you

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The following article includes the words "Rom, Roma, and Romany" to describe the people also (inaccurately) known as "Gypsies." The author has chosen the preferred terms in respect for Sani's and Esma's request.

SANI RIFATI

My friend Sani Rifati is a self-described Rom Activist. He has appeared recently on the History Channel's documentary, "Curse on the Gypsies," and is becoming well known across the U.S.and elsewhere for his work, not only for his people, the Roma, but for all people, to help us overcome the barriers of ignorance and myth that has held for too long bewteen gadje (non-Rom) and Roma alike. Sani and his wife, Carol Bloom, also produce the annual Herdeljes Celebration in Graton, California. Herdeljes means "Summer Announcement," and it's the only festival of its kind in the United States that is on any sizeable scale that we know of. Sani and Carol's Herdeljes is open to the public and each year attendance grows as people become aware of the event.

Sani was born in Kosovo (former Yugoslavia), the second of six children. His situation growing up was a mixture of repressive Romany and oppressive Muslim tenets, during a socialistic regime.

The good thing about this regime was that schooling was free, and Sani earned his degree as a chemical engineer in Kosovo. The conflict between the Albanian and Serbian people was heating up when he was still in school, in the early 1980s. He found himself caught bewteen the demonstrators and the police on more than one occasion.

This is because Roma try to remain nuetral during conflicts. Sani says, "The most beautiful part of my culture is that we don't like to fight. We have no country - not even a national hero. That is not to say we don't have heros, we do - but they represent the country where they live."

Sani was fortunate because his mother encouraged her children to attend school. This was actually considered somewhat rebellious as far as Roma go. Sani found early on that because he was an outsider, a Rom, in a Serbian school, that he had to work several times harder than the Serbian children. By the time he graduated, he spoke Romany, Turkish, Albanian, Macedonian and Serbo-Croatian (Yugoslavian). Along the way Sani became very active in semi-professional soccer. But he found he could not get work in either his chemistry field or in professional soccer because of discrimination against Roma. It was heartbreaking when the Albanians took control, as they began separatism and hired any Albanian - even 12 year old children - to do the work, including adult jobs, because of their Albanian nationality. Anyone not Albanian was out of luck.

In 1988 Sani moved to Croatia. He found work as a seasonal sales clerk at a souvenir shop and diligently saved his earnings aside. Soon he had enough to go to Florence, Italy, later that same year. Sani said he chose Florence in part because of its lovely name, even though he didn't yet speak Italian.

Once in Italy Sani found a cheap room. But not too much time had passed before he was out of money, could not speak the language, and had no job. He became homeless, sleeping on park benches and under bridges, preferring that life to returning to Yugoslavia as it was falling apart by then. Sani got busy and learned passing Italian within 3 months, and very soon after found his first job in Italy as an assistant plasterer and mason. His boss taught him well during the ensuing apprenticeship, and included painting and other related skills as well. It went so smoothly for Sani that he later worked for his boss, then his good friend, only in the winter, while in the summer he ran his own business and employed four people of his own!

Sani began going to nursing school. He had been attending classes for about a year and working at his masonry business part time. But in '91 or '92 as the war broke out in Yugoslavia, three of his brothers came to him in Italy for help. He found them housing and work, quit school and went back to work full time.

About that same time, in '91, Sani met Carol at an outdoor concert in Florence featuring a Romanian Romany band. Their violinist was Taraf di Hajduk, perhaps familiar to readers of this article as the violinist featured in the movie, "Latcho Drom," who played the violin with one string. Sani was translating for the Romany band members and Carol was visiting from her home in America. When '92 rolled around, they became more involved. Carol had moved on to Amsterdam then, but came to Florence fairly often to visit. Sani also made it to Amsterdam to visit her, and she gave him his first silk shirt! They became very close, and travelled extensively throughout Europe for about five months together.

But before long, Carol was needing to leave and return to the U.S.A.. Sani asked her to stay and live with him, but she had to return home, so the lovers contented themselves for a time by writing frequent letters to one another. After many long-distance phone calls and dozens of weekly letters four months had passed. While Sani was visiting Munich, Carol telephoned and told him that if he wanted to live with her, it would have to be in America. So he agreed, and they married in Florence and returned to the United States together.

Sani told me how very lucky he feels he was to have found Carol, as she was instrumental in aiding him and encouraging him to become an activist and spokesperson for his people. Carol was a feminist activist in the 1970s, and knew some ins and outs by then. Sani had experienced so much predjudice and discrimination in Yugoslavia that he was determined to do his part to help abolish it elsewhere. He calls our people here in America "cynically gullible" because we don't believe much of what we are told by educators, yet believe too much about what we read or hear in the media. However, he loves the United States because we allow free speech. Many of us here do not realize what a privilege this is; so many folks the world over consider it a luxury as it is not available to them elsewhere.

Sani described some eye-opening statistics regarding the genocide of his people throughout Europe, and mentioned that it is still going on in some places. Skinheads and other groups are killing Roma for no other reason than that they are Roma, even today as I write. He mentioned protesting at the Czeck Republic embassy a few years ago because a group of skinheads savagely beat and threw off a bridge a Romni (a Rom woman) because they could. (This occurred in the Czech Republic). Finally the leader of the skinhead group received an eight year sentence for the murder. Eight years, only! It is things like this that keep Sani going on his quest to bring to light this kind of horror so it can be stopped.

"Sometimes what I am trying to do seems impossible," Sani tells me. "How can I get through to this society here in the U.S., when people have so little time? In conjunction with the corporate world, working 12 to 14 hours a day with the commute, and coming home so tired at night they cannot give their time and attention to this plight. People cannot get the information, they sit in front of the T.V. because they are so tired from their day. This makes me ask myself, 'what am I doing?' Then I remember that if I don't speak up for my people, then who is going to? It takes someone to start. I am who I am, and I am honored to be a Rom."

I asked Sani how he first became involved as a speaker for his people, and much to my delight, he replied, "It started with your event in Berkeley two years ago." (In 1997 I sponsored Elizabeth Artemis Mourat and Laurel Victoria Gray in their two-day "Gypsy Fire" workshop, and asked Sani to come and speak during the evening show. Again in 1998 he did the same, and also taught traditional Romany line dances with Carol for the audience during intermission.) "So one of my first speeches was at your event. Since then I have been going to schools and Universities for lectures, speaking on the radio and becoming more well known." When asked how he has been received, Sani replied, "Well, the students were very surprised - shocked - at how much I criticized American society. As I said before, I am very angry at our media and at narrow-minded people here. They do not represent the entire picture. What you hear, for example, about the situation in Kosovo is all about Serbs, Croatians, Bosnians and Albanians.

You hear nothing about the Roma caught up in the conflict, and there are over one million in former Yugoslavia. In Kosovo alone there are between 200,000 and 250,000 Roma. It's just as you heard nothing about their genocide during the Holocaust of WWII until very recently, and that is due to some Rom activists and scholars who have finally spoken out, and the work of Ian Hancock, or you would still not be aware of the one million Roma that perished then. I also get angry, and see correlations in that when I asked a student at Sonoma State University how many units one needs to graduate on Native American culture and he replied they need two. Two units! How much can you learn in two units about the people your ancestors killed and stole from? We put up our asphalt over their ashes and still we know nothing. It is also true for understanding African Americans. We spend basically no time in this society, for college students, on getting to understand one another."

I asked Sani how he became involved in the History Channel's documentary, "Curse on the Gypsies." He belongs to the Romany Union, "and the president of the union is Ian Hancock. (Who also appears on the same documentary.) The History Channel contacted him, and he gave them my phone number. Ian Hancock is a very incredible fighter, very politically involved. It took him twelve years to gain one Romany seat on the Holocaust Council in Washington, DC, but he did it, with help from some politically active Americans. It is now known that the genocide during WWII on the Roma began much earlier than suspected, before the Jewish genocide. In 1932 Hitler's regime conducted the first experiments on two hundred and fifty Romany children, all of whom were killed in the gas chambers then."

Sani was very willing to describe his Herdeljes Celebration when I asked. "This past summer we had our second annual summer festival. This May 8, 1999 will be our third year. In my culture we have only two seasons, winter and summer. In the winter we are obliged to stay in one place because of the weather, but in the summer we can return to our travels. So the return of summer is of course a big celebration, a wonderful thing! The weather is warmer and the food is more plentiful. We are no longer cooped up indoors. We celebrate the moon, the movement, the light, the sun and the fire. With movement things can happen, things can grow and change. Traditionally, in Yugoslavia, we would go with our families and have a big picnic. We'd bring mastika to drink and lots of food. On the way home we'd pick up some herbs for good health, good luck, prosperity, the good season and warm weather. We buy lambs and we sacrifice the lambs for a good year. The lamb is sacrificed to make sure bad things cannot happen. The lamb is shared, eaten by the families and given to charities, to people who have nothing to eat. The next morning we get up very early, before the dawn. Some people get up at midnight! We meet in front of the home and start a big fire where the lambs are roasted and everyone listens to or plays music, dances, drinks, feasts and celebrates the coming of summer together. It goes on for four more days, the whole celebration being eight days long."

I asked Sani about the custom of leaping the bonfire. "The fire is our source. To our ancestors fire was life. With fire we could boil the water, cook the food, wash the clothes and all the things you need. Also, people dress up for this event traditionally, and clean out their closets and wear something new. This is for good health and prosperity."

The celebration in Graton, California is not exactly the same. Last year there were two hundred and sixty people in attendance, mostly non-Rom. "We start preparing seven days before the event. We cook our traditional food and prepare everything. My mother will be here for this year's celebration and she will make the best baklava from scratch that you have ever tasted! People hear about it from listening to KPFA (a radio station in the Bay Area that focuses on ethnic music and events) and from seeing flyers I put up. The rest hear word-of-mouth."

We spoke about other Romany celebrations and traditions, and I learned that these can vary from place to place. Sani explained that the Roma pick up culture from the host cultures of the countries or regions they have settled in, and often adopt some aspects themselves. Sani told me a bit about the tradition of celebrating the Day of the Dead, which in Kosovo they do at the end of summer, in the fall. The Roma go from place to place and leave offerings and commune with the spirits of the dead, much like Los Dias de Los Muertos is celebrated in Mexico and in the southwest of the U.S., similar also to Hallowe'en or Samhain. Also religion plays a part, for if one is a Christian Rom they may celebrate more Christian things, like an Orthodox Christmas. "Their New Year's Eve is on the 7th of January. In my culture we celebrate the first day of the year as you do here. Or if they are Muslim, they will honor those traditions. Male circumcision is a big event for Roma as well. But the one celebration that all Roma have in common is Herdeljes."

I asked Sani how his people perceive movies such as "Latcho Drom" or "Gadjo Dillo." He replied that he liked both of them very much. "The Romany website, RomNet, had much positive response to Latcho Drom. But for Gadjo Dillo they did not have as much. It generated a lot of controversy between the Roma themselves. Some were very offended. I listened to both sides and I realized some of my people's scholars here are not familiar with some of the customs of our people in Europe. They are more into 'political correctness' and do not always represent the true picture of our culture. Tony Gatliff (the writer and director of both films, who is Rom) did not make anything up! All that he shows in the movie is true. For me, that is good enough. But some of my people are afraid that the depiction of some of the less savory elements of our culture will make people who are trying to learn about us more afraid or more separate. That it will only serve to reinforce more of the stereotypes we are fighting against."

I mentioned to Sani that I personally enjoyed Gadjo Dillo even more than Latcho Drom because it seemed more truthful. To me, Latcho Drom had a lot of staged scenes that one would not encounter under normal conditions. It was - well, prettier, and cleaner, and easier to look at. Yes, and more politically correct. As Sani said, it was romanticized. The last film was grittier and more real. As Sani says, "The truth hurts sometimes. I was very impressed with the movie. I didn't see anything wrong with it, as that is who we are. Sometimes I ask myself, with my credit cards and my going to work everyday, 'what kind of Rom am I?' Rom scholars, and activists, we are now separate from our people, we have our computers and what do we know about suffering?"

But Sani has a unique perspective on these matters, as he has had both the suffering and now the more comfortable life, in which he can try to do something positive for his people and all people worldwide by initiating change. This could not happen if he were still suffering. He would need to attend to daily life and would have no time or energy left for helping the world. Sani is also unique in that he is willing to speak to non-Rom (he personally does not use or like the term gadje, as he feels it serves to keep us separate) about his people. The majority of Roma are very unwilling to communicate with outsiders. As he pointed out, however, it is with good reason that they are reluctant to speak - centuries of good reasons, actually. He says some of his own people see him as an outsider because of his work with gadje. They see him as someone who is different from them. I was very disturbed to hear that, but I understand as he does. The wheels of change turn slowly on all corners of the wagon.

We agreed we are both very lucky to have each other, us non-Rom who would like to learn more about the Roma, and he as an individual for the shared experiences we have because of his willingness to speak. He says it is good because people are listening. They are seeing, albeit slowly, that Rom are not baby-snatching chicken thieves but rather people just like you and I.
This is because of work of people like Sani who care about the future of all people.

Sani and Carol are working on a project together to further this understanding. Carol is a professional mediator and they have just returned from Kosovo where they began work on the Kosovar Romany Conflict Resolution Project. It offers education and training in internal and inter-ethnic conflict resolution for the Romany community in Pristina, Kosovo. The overall goal is to improve living conditions for Kosovar Roma by providing an understanding of conflict and conflict resolution methods congruent with Romany culture and assisting Roma to establish and strengthen their collective voice within the larger, ethnically diverse community of Kosovo. A special emphasis will be placed on providing access to and encouraging the participation of Romany women in all aspects of the project.

Also while in Kosovo this past December 1998, Sani and Carol brought $6,000 they raised through various fund-raising projects, including Herdeljes (from which all proceeds go to this end) lectures, donations, sales of T-shirts Sani has made, and various other projects. I am very pleased to be involved in some of these by dancing in performance at these events. The money raised went to buy firewood and dried goods that they personally distributed among needy families, both Rom and non-Rom alike.

Through Sani I was very honored to meet his cousin, Esma Redzepova, the undisputed Queen of Romany Song. She is best known for her work with the Ansambl Teodosievski, with whom she has toured for decades. Together with her late husband, Stevo Teodosievski, they have recorded over one hundred singles, twenty albums, and twenty cassettes, including several gold records. "How do you describe a woman who sings with the power of lightning, the wisdom of a sage, the voice of an angel and the tenderness of a loving mother? She is Esma, a world class artist and cultural icon who carries the torch for her people wherever she goes. She has sung for presidents and peasants, always with the dedication and intensity of a woman who gives from every cell. This dynamo barely brushes five feet tall but has moved pavillions of thousands and has introduced them to the magic of Romany music." (from an article by Elizabeth Artemis Mourat, reprinted with permission.) Following is an interview I conducted with Esma that was translated by Sani earlier in the fall of 1998. Esma is another Romni who is also working tirelessly to help her people, and has been doing so for a lifetime.

ESMA REDZEPOVA

KD: How did you become known as the Queen of Romany Music?
E: In 1976 in Chandigarh, India twenty-three representatives of the Roma from many countries gathered for the First World Festival of Romany Songs and Music. (India was chosen in part because the Rom people recognize it as their place of origin.) They wanted to see who had the most traditional Romany way of singing. From the twenty-three representatives, I won first place! I was crowned and awarded this honor by none other than Prime Minister Indira Ghandi and India's President.

KD: What was it like to perform for Indira Ghandi?
E: Just like all performances when you sing in front of important people, like presidents and heads of state. It gives you more incentive and motivation to do your best. In 1961 Yugoslavia hosted the Summit Conference for eighty-nine international countries. Eighty-nine presidents were there, and I sang in front of all of them.

KD: You began performing at age thirteen. So young! How, and why?
E: Correction! From the twelfth year. In 1997 I had a celebration of forty years of singing in Skopje, Macedonia. That was always my dream - to become a singer. I always had a talent for the music and for singing. I lived and trained with my late husband, Stevo. At age twelve he virtually adopted me and began my formal training. I took all classes in school and music until age twenty- three with him. Throughout the years we fell in love and married after that time.

KD: What inspired you to adopt over forty-four children over twenty-five years?
E: Another correction. It is now forty-seven! Because I was adopted as a poor little girl, I later on wanted to continue this by helping other kids who's families couldn't afford for them to go to school or to take care of them. That's how our famous school got started, the School of Music by Esma and Stevo Teodosievski. We like to help people.

KD: Why did you choose to adopt only boys?
E: The children were adopted around age thirteen, right when their puberty starts. Stevo and I realized that it would be asking for trouble to put boys and girls together at that age. If I could have had babies of my own, but unfortunately I couldn't, then I would have boys and girls together, and I would treat them the same, because then they would be siblings. But all my boys we adopted call me Mama. I have been able to help more kids through adoption than if I had been able to have children of my own. All of the proceeds from the tour of the Ensemble Teodosievski go to help fund and run the School of Music in Macedonia, and to help the children. Both Rom and non-Rom children benefit. I am also involved with a women's organization there that I helped get started. It's called the Romany Organization of Women (ESMA). Now that organization is fighting the fact that there are no women in the Parliment. They want women politicians to help represent them. They also help the women however they can, with whatever is needed.

KD: How would you describe the style of music you sing?
E: It's Classic Romany music. It's all traditional. I think that it's really worth keeping the style pure, so I don't mix cultural influences while singing with the Ensemble Teodosievski. It is a very demanding style vocally, with many ornaments. The musicians have to follow me in order to perform it. There are not many who can do this. In a future solo project I may allow for more creative freedom, however.

KD: I understand you sing in sixteen different languages. How many do you speak conversationally?
E: You don't need to know the language but you can sing. I just got done teaching a workshop at Balkan Camp at Mendocino Woodlands in California. After just one week two hundred and fifty people can now sing in Romany and Macedonian! They don't know the languages, but they sing! At Mendocino Balkan Camp people sing and speak at least twelve languages. They're all representing different Balkan countries like Russia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Albania and all of them. They are all different flavors. I can sing in all of them, but my mothertongue is Romany. I can also speak Macedonian, Serbian, Turkish. Lots more.

KD: One very important accomplishment you have been instrumental in achieving has been to help break down the barriers between the Roma and Slavic peoples. How did you achieve this and how can others work towards a similar goal throughout the world?
E: One of the secrets of why this door was opened is because my teacher, my husband, was not Rom. Stevo was Macedonian. If a door was open, it is because Stevo opened it. If a door wasn't opened, he would try to open it. A Rom would not have been as successful. In some ways that shows the sickness of a society, but you have to start somewhere. If they are refusing me because I am Romni, then they won't be refusing him because he is different from Roma.

KD: Do you have any advice how people elsewhere can help achieve the goal of breaking through barriers and opening doors? And increase the cultural understanding between Rom and non-Rom?
E: I would welcome all of that. We can in this world. Nobody ever knows when they will be accepted or rejected. It's not our fault if we are one of the world's human races on the earth. I don't like that there are borders around countries. I prefer that the borders be open to everyone. I came free into this world and I don't care if there is Germany or Greece or Turkey. I feel I am a World Citizen. I cannot help it if I am Rom, it is not my fault. If I want to be in America, I am in America. If I want to be in Australia, then I'm in Australia. I have never liked the fact that people are fighting for centuries. Why do we have to kill for the race? Why do we have to kill for the country? Or the territory? Or for this or that? I don't understand. We live for a very short time. We don't live to one hundred years. Maybe if we did, we'd fight one hundred years. If we lived to two hundred years and fought for a hundred, at least we'd have another hundred years of peace! But we don't, and we don't learn from our mistakes. We are still fighting. Why? We are born naked and we die naked and we don't carry anything with us to the next world. So fighting doesn't make sense. The greatest barrier to all people is war.

KD: Would you say that the prejudice and problems experienced by Roma in Macedonia are similar to those experienced by Rom worldwide, and do you think those are similar to the problems of any oppressed group?
E: Macedonia is least oppressive. Partly because I sang for so many years the Romany music there! It was one of the first countries in the world that gave a radio show in the Romany language, with singing and music. One of the first Rom as a leader (mayor) is of the town of Skopje. They have Romski as members of the Parliment in Macedonia, they have two private Roma channels on TV and four radio stations in the Romany language now, and on national TV, there are two shows and all of Macedonia can watch us. So Macedonia is definitely one of the most democratic and accepting of Rom people. If in this earth there is a country that doesn't have any Roma, then that means it is not a democratic system. And that is why I think the Roma are one of the greatest people, because we don't have a country or own a land. We just want to have peace and live our lives. Where we settle, in which country, we are patriots to that country. We are committed to it if we adopt it as our own.

KD: What would you like to talk about for our readers to know?
E: My message is to love and respect one another, it doesn't matter the race, skin color or gender. The person who has a little more should help the one who has nothing. One of the most important messages is to help the children.

This concludes my interviews with Sani Rifati and Esma Redzepova. Please feel free to contact Sani for information regarding how you can help, or donate contributions, how you can sponsor him separately or with his wife Carol in your town, and about Herdeljes. Sani will travel for lectures and he and Carol make a great teaching team for the line dances!

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Other websites with information regarding the Roma are:
Roma Home Page
European Roma Rights Center
Open Society Institute
Roma (Gypsy) Origins & History
Bury Me Standing-The Gypsies and Their Journey
Rromani People

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