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In
the Fall of 1998 I was interviewed by Barbara Sellers-Young from
the U.C. Davis Arts and Dance Department. It was fun to be interviewed
instead of doing the interviewing myself for a change of pace!
Barbara plans to use portions of her interview with me in a long-term
project she is working on that includes the personal views of many
dancers from different places.
Please do not copy any portion of this copyrighted document without
permission from myself and Ms. Sellers-Young.
Thank you, and enjoy.
(B):
Is the dance your primary occupation or your avocation?
(KD):
It began as the latter and became the former! Now dance and related
activities (teaching, performing, sponsoring the occasional seminar,
writing and vending, for example) are my primary income source,
I'm happy to say.
(B):
What kind of venues do you perform, seminar concerts, fairs, parties,
restaurants, old folks homes, other?
(KD):
All of the above, plus festivals, retreats and women's gatherings,
mixed gender rituals, weddings, theatres, schools from elementary
to high schools to colleges and state universities.
(B):
Is there one you prefer?
(KD):
No. I enjoy then all for different reasons. They all are wonderful
opportunities for expression. I find the styles I choose to perform,
the music and costuming all vary depending upon my expected audience
and the venue. I enjoy many interpretations, some more traditional
than others, and having various outlets for my dance gives me the
opportunity to express them all.
(B):
You have been involved with the dance community for several years,
what have been the primary changes you have noted within it?
(KD):
More variety is the first thing that comes to mind for me. By that
I mean, in this area when I began dancing, Egyptian style (modern
oriental, not folkloric) was almost all you could find. There were
a few old-timers around who still danced in the "classical American
old-style".... those wondrous routines of 5 or 7 parts, and often
using Egyptian, Turkish, Greek and Armenian music in the same routine.
Those routines included finger cymbals, a veil section, a middle
section, a floorwork and/or other prop such as sword, tray or candle
section, a drum solo and finale. THOSE were the dancers that inspired
me then and still do now; and I am happy to see more interest once
again for this type of performance.
In
the last few years I am also delighted in the resurgence of interest
of traditional folkloric and Romany (Gypsy) styles with accurate
interpretations of the original traditions, not based in fantasy
and ignorance as they were portrayed in the past in this country.
People seem more concerned with accuracy and "truth-in-packaging."
I believe that is partially due to the availability of resources
and teachers, as well as research material of other sorts, such
as books, the Oriental Bellydance trade magazines, discussion forums
like the MED List, and the internet. The internet alone I believe
has done a quantam leap to help us gain information about dances
in countries we may not be able to visit personally.
What's
more, interpretive styles seem also to be more appreciated as long
as they are billed as such. Fusion dance and music has really grown
in popularity, especially with the introduction of the first album
by the band of the same name, "Alabina," a Spanish-Egyptian fusion
group. At the last Festival I attended only a weekend ago, I heard
troupes and soloists dancing to this album more than any other.
(Overkill?;-) I first heard it about 3 years ago and thought it
was great then, but now it's almost too familiar for my taste! But
it is one example of how fusion is becoming mainstream.
Also,
the phenomenon of American Tribal Bellydance is really taking hold
of many people's imaginations and speaking to something in common
in many people's souls. It seems to be at once ancient and contemporary;
American and not; powerful and not potentially sleazy as some cabaret
type performances can be when done improperly. It seems to express
the concept of "powerful independent women" better than any other
style at this time. Gaiety to the point of flirtation and coyness
are not included in this style, nor overtly sexual (sensual, yes)
movements. This seems to be a very new idea in the use of MidEastern
dance in America, and very appealing to the up-and-coming dancers
who consider themselves members of society's "alternative set",
or "modern primitives."
(B):
The dance is often associated with being a woman and female power
as well as the feminine principle. All three of these are often
defined differently by each one of us. How would you define them?
(KD):
That's a hard one because I feel the answers are subjective and
not objective. I'm not sure what the "feminine principle" is.....
I just looked up both words and still cannot guess at that one....
but if there is a definition of that idea that is expressed in bellydance,
I would venture to say it is most profound in the American Tribal
styles and in Sacred Dance expressions, and not as much for simple
entertainment's sake.
I
feel being a woman is truly expressed in its full glory when a woman
has a sense of her female power! I feel that you can be a woman
without having power, of course, but most cannot have female power
without being a woman. I feel power is gained through confidence
and independence of an individual, especially in self-expression.
I feel power comes with patience and hard work, as well as the ability
to think for one's self and not rely on other's opinions to sway
you in all facets. I feel power comes to those who are willing to
embrace it instead of flee from it; that it appears when one is
truly happy in their work and have put effort forth to learn their
craft. (Confidence....)
Also
a certain amount of fearlessness! Especially, for me, in the notion
of not apologizing for my own personal stylistic preferences, but
embracing who I am, has helped me gain my own Power. I have also
found my power has increased when I was able to let go of my ego
a bit and let my soul shine, when I was able to dance "in" in music
instead of "to" it, when I let go of my brain talking to me while
dancing ("I've done that move, she did this move, what am I gonna
do next?"- that sort of thing) and be in the MOMENT.... *that when
one allows herself to be VUNERABLE, she will find POWER in that
state.*
A
strange notion, that by relinquishing power one finds more of it!
By allowing the unknown into your dance, by not thinking. By allowing
the possibility of "looking dorky." It's then when true power comes
(for me), and also in combination with the other ideas I have expressed
above. For example, I do not believe one can just get out there
and dance from the heart without practicing and making technique
an "automatic" and still convey the power. I feel one needs to be
able to do all of these things to find her female power in the art
of Bellydance. And I do feel most people can learn to channel this
power through dedication, love, practice and perserverance.
For
me personally, I am more powerful as a dancer in some styles than
others, probably due to my familiarity with them, which was developed
due to my natural affinity for the music and dance of certain areas
more than others. Today, solo styles are my best expression as far
as power content, but I see great potential and am working towards
that same power in groups via American Tribal Style Bellydance.
I
don't see the dance as necessarily requiring any of the above to
begin. I believe males can dance this dance as well, and that women
learning to find their power can be aided by dancing. (I most certainly
was nearly powerless when I began this dance, and that situation
has reversed itself for me, directly due to the practice of this
dance!)
For
that matter, males can find power in the dance as well if they are
open to being in a minority that is often misunderstood. As for
the feminine principle, I still don't know. I do suppose certain
men could learn to embrace the feminine aspects of themselves through
the medium of bellydance and perhaps gain some measure of feminity
- or permission to express their inherent feminity. After all, we
all have aspects of both genders within.
(B):
Would you describe belly dancing as exotic, erotic or sensual--all
three or some combination of the latter. What about the dance's
costume, movement style, place of performance influences your definition
of the dance?
(KD):
I definitely believe that all three of the above adjectives can
be applied to someone's dancing. I choose not to express eroticism
through my own interpretations, but I would not want to tell anyone
else that they cannot enjoy that if they choose. I am adamantly
against censorship of any form. I do know that history has proven
traditional roots in all three of the words you asked me about and
I have seen all three expressed in modern day contexts.
Then,
of course, much of those descriptions have to do not with the dancer's
intent, but with the audience's interpretation of what they have
seen! For example, just because I don't think I am projecting erotic
behavior in a performance doesn't mean someone watching will not
think me sexy or erotic. I have no control over other people's thoughts
or prejudices, just my own. So I am aware of the possibility of
a double meaning.
I
do feel all forms of bellydance are "exotic" in the manner that
it is not something yet widely done or seen (those of us in the
community can forget that, as for us it is a daily practice!) The
music, costuming, confidence and playfulness of the women (and men)
doing this art form could most certainly be considered exotic by
most. After all, we don't turn on the radio (usually) to find Faruk
Tekbilek or Hossam Ramzy wailing away, nor do we wear items of costuming
for everyday. The costume of the dancer is meant to be exotic,
or we'd be in tights and leotards. Same thing with performance makeup.
These accroutements are meant to evoke something special and different
from everyday life no matter where they are used. So, yes, it is
exotic.
I
also believe sensuality is embodied in many of the movements naturally.
I feel it is the intent of the dancer and her choice of how she
does these movements that can take them across the line of sensual
into the realm of sexual or erotic, though again, it can also be
in the "eye of the beholder."
(B):
When you use the word authentic with regards to the dance are you
referring to the fact that the context, costume and movement approximates
a dance or dances of the middle east or are you referring to the
performance integrity of the dancer or both?
(KD):
Both. And, excellent question, especially in the light of recent
List discussions! I would say that authentic is applied to the performance
integrity of the dancer of any stylistic preference, including American
interpretations as well as traditional MidEast or North African
ones. For example, tassel belts and East Indian choli tops are authentic
costuming for American Tribal Bellydance, just as the *American-invented*
bra and belt sets (bedlah) are authentic costuming for
what is now known as traditional Egyptian, Lebanese and Turkish
dance in Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon and more, as well as in America.
All styles have their own sets of authentic movements as well, of
course.
Even
when considering authentic to be only the dances that approximate
as closely as possible the music, costuming and cultural context
of the place of it's origin, there is theatrical license taken for
stage that does not seem to negate the dance's authenticity. For
example, when Morocco (of New York) does Guedra in a performance
she does use authentic music and pretty darn close to authentic
costuming (of course she cannot weave the headdress into her hair
for a show!) and an authentic movement vocabulary.
BUT
the dance ritual is out of context, and is not how it would be done
in the country of Morocco except perhaps for tourists. For example,
a real Guedra ritual would not include taped recordings, and it
would include many chanters and clappers in a circle, not entirely
missing or as in the case of the Cultural Dance Company's interpretation
that is done with our chanters and clappers in a semi-circle so
the audience can see the dancer. I still feel these are authentic
interpretations, perhaps best called that, or at least called "theatricalized
interpretations for the stage of authentic dances"!
The
exception to that name game would be dances of America such as American
Tribal Bellydance or Classical American Cabaret Bellydance, or Sacred
or Ritual Dance. These are already authentic in every way as they
were created here for the purpose of stages, rituals and performances
and are not strict interpretations of anything from anywhere else.
The dictionary says authentic is "real or genuine."
(B):
How would you use the word traditional with regards to the dance?
(KD):
I think traditional is more rooted in history. That it can be passed
down and traced from one generation to another, allowing for natural
evolution along the way. (This is also what my dictionary says,
that in order for a thing to be traditional it must have that generation-to-generation
part.) I added the evolution idea, as of course people do take from
others better or easier ideas for their lives and pass this information
down as well.
(B):
People often refer to the dance in the United States as being ethnic
(raqs sharki or oriental, tribal, spiritual and theatrical.
How would you define your dance in relationship to these categories?
(KD):
Personally, I do not mix up the styles in one performance. When
I do one style I am not doing the other! In my interpretive dancing
you will find spontaneous movements from my vocabularies of Egyptian,
Turkish, folkloric, American Tribal and Romany dances sometimes.
But only if I am allowing that kind of thing under the umbrella
of "interpretive!" If I am putting on an "educational" peformance
I will stick to the proper movement vocabulary, demeanor, music
and costuming for whatever style I am presenting. I love to give
some background on these types of dance performances. This is the
kind of thing we do in the Cultural Dance Company. I sometimes do
this solo as well.
I
feel it is important to understand that "theatrical" is probably
a good word to use for any performance no matter what style
one is dancing, however. That is because if danced in the women's
living quarters in a harem or modern home in another country, the
dance is rarely done in "costumes" and is rarely done as well as
professional entertainers do it! The mere fact that it is removed
from it's original context makes it theatricalized, as the audience's
entertainment is important to professionals in any country.
The
word "ethnic" I have heard most commonly used to describe anything
BUT Raks al Sharqi or Oriental! Where I live, ethnic implies
folkloric or tribal (of the MidEast or America) interpretations
more so than the cabaret styles. Even the words cabaret bellydance
are used entirely in this area as opposed to oriental or raks
al sharki! I have been very interested in these findings as
they have been filtering in through my own research on the stylistic
differences. So I believe the names in themselves are regional preferences
in the U.S. (Especially when speaking of east coast vs. west coast
I have found extreme differences in preferences of names!) Personally,
however, I often refer to all styles of MidEastern dance from modern
Oriental to traditional folkloric to American Cabaret and Tribal
as "ethnic," especially when asked by strangers what I do, as I
feel that best describes all forms I enjoy.
And
as far as "spiritual"- I don't believe that has as much to do with
actual style of choice as it does with the dancer's personal beliefs
and her intent while dancing. I feel any dance style can be of a
spiritual nature for the dancer, just as playing music can be for
the musician. Spirit in art comes from within and may or may not
be discernable to the onlooker.
For
me, sacred dance is more accurate a term to describe a performance
done under special circumstances for certain rituals or gatherings
that may include special trappings or manners of expression to fit
the occasion. I feel that dance rituals such as those found in Sufism
(esp. in the Mevlevi Order), Guedra, zar and other forms of worship
or contact with the spiritual realms that involve dance movement
could be called either spiritual or sacred, but I personally would
choose the word sacred to describe these most often.
So,
we have found that I am in disagreement with the four categories
you have chosen in your question as "People often refer to the dance
in the US as being ethnic (raqs sharki or oriental), tribal,
or theatrical." As we have seen, to everyone I know in the San Francisco
north bay, "ethnic" refers to folkloric and tribal (even American
Tribal, in part because of the traditional folkloric music, textiles
and facial tattoos) and "cabaret" refers to the solo oriental styles
that uses orchestrated or modern (non-traditional) music; "spiritual"
I believe can be in any of the above and more; and "theatrical"
I believe is accurate for all of the above in any performance situation.
This is interesting to note, isn't it? It gets back to that regional
preference thing again, I feel.
(B):
When you are dancing is there a specific emotion that you are trying
to convey? A story you want to tell? Does this vary with venue and
or dance style - ethnic, etc?
(KD):
Yes, it varies. For example, when I am dancing with a group performing
American Tribal style, it is our belief that we are there strictly
to entertain - that our purpose is pure entertainment's sake, and
not get too emotional or gushy. Smiles a mile wide, upbeat folkloric
sounds such as Metkal Kenaui and the Musicians of the Nile or Hossam's
folkloric baladi stuff as music; some introspective slower
stuff, but all in the name of a good show and in the spirit of the
Ghawazee or even of circus entertainers; very Romany-like
in the thought of "anything for a buck," and in the sense of community
between the dancers themselves.
When
I do solos I seldom choose A.T.S. (American Tribal Style) as it
is best suited for groups, I feel. I love to do deep, meaningful,
emotional solos! For example, last Friday night I danced at a restaurant
and chose a Turkish song I love called "Belalum." It is hauntingly
beautiful and a bit sad; it has a female vocalist and stringed intruments
that tug at the heart. For me, I could not dance to this music and
not convey intense emotion! That would be almost "sacreligious"
to me as a dancer! The lyrics are saying basically: "Why do I love
you so, when you are my trouble? But it is my fate to love you.
You are my trouble." If the audience is not moved when I am done
with that piece they are dead! People "get it." And they don't have
to speak Turkish! And, I always lighten the mood after an intense
piece such as that so as not to leave 'em crying in their babaganoush......
and for the sake of good showmanship.
I
have also done interpretive pieces that have been choreographed
esp. to tell a story at events such as Dhyanis' annual Living Goddess
show, or at Delilah's Inanna-themed retreats, for example. We all
depicted the descent and ascent of Inanna through dance. These are
"special circumstance dances."
So
yes, I do sometimes choose to tell a story if the music I or intent/purpose
of the situation calls for one. If it doesn't, or it's just playful
or happy, then my dance will reflect that. I let the music determine
my interpretations and choose my sets (and costumes) accordingly.
Sometimes the music is just plain fun and does not convey any particular
story, so my dance doesn't either.
I
do find that picking emotions, archetypes, colors and qualities
in dance class to be a helpful tool when teaching my students improvisational
skills, and even to think of "stories" while constructing choreographies
as one possible approach.
(B):
Is the dance associated for you with a spiritual discipline as in
meditation or a system of belief about the nature of your relationship
to the universe?
(KD):
Because I am a spiritual person, everything I do is somehow related
to that aspect of my self. Sometimes it is a concious connexion
and at other times it is not. For example, when teaching I do not
usually mention or indicate anything of a spiritual nature, especially
in my beginning levels. Occasionally I explore this aspect in the
more advanced levels as a means to learn improvisation or as a tool
for self exploration, but I don't base my classes on the spiritual
side of dance. I feel that is a personal thing and that dancers
will either gravitate to that or not and I don't feel a need to
emphasize it in class. I also do not feel a need or desire to influence
any person in that direction. People of all faiths and beliefs are
welcome in my classes.
I
have had spiritual awakenings while dancing, esp. while whirling
and also during walking meditations, as found in Sufi practices.
I have also experienced trance states while doing Guedra
blessings and in other dance moments. But that is not my usual purpose
for dancing, and should they occur, I welcome them as rather nice
side effects! These kinds of things rarely occur for me during a
performance, I should add that, as the most profound spiritual experiences
I have had have been while simply playing and not worrying about
being entertaining at all.
Because
I do seem to be able to express myself well through the medium of
dance movement, I also do choose movement on occasion to worship
the Divine privately and in ritual settings instead of singing,
for example. Or telling a verbal story. For me, I am just more comfortable
moving. Others have other ways that work for them.
(B):
Is the dance your primary method of exercise? If not how does it
fit into the rest of your exercise regime? If yes, what do you feel
are the benefits of it for you?
(KD):
Yes, it is at this time. I also find I must supplement my dancing
with some strengthening and weight training, as well as lots of
stretching and aerobic exercise for optimum health, even though
I don't always follow through on the aerobics part! But the dance
itself is not quite enough for me by itself. However, it is my most
used form of exercise (I dance on an average of 5 days per week,
for an average duration of 2 hours each time) and I do the other
things simply so I can dance better! (That's incentive for me!)
I feel the benefits I have gained from dancing include greater strength
and flexibility, more positive self esteem and confidence, better
balance and grace, more compassion, more unconditional love, (I
know those last two are weird, but they have increased for me as
I have danced- I could explain in more detail if you desire) better
posture and better muscle tone.
Practicing
and performing the dance has also helped me to care more about my
diet and other exercise methods because of their relationship to
my dance. I have explored more types of dance as well due to my
love of bellydance, both in other ethnic dance styles as well as
classical occidental styles. I probably would not have done this
if I hadn't been comfortable bellydancing. It gave me the courage
to do other things.
I
feel the dance has been very healing for me on many levels, not
just physically but emotionally, spiritually and mentally as well.
Thank
you for reading my interview.
~end~
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