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This
interview was conducted in 1996 and was published in Jareeda Magazine
in two parts in the March and April 1997 issues. If you wish to
use it for any reason, please contact me. Enjoy!!!!! Let me know
what you think.
In the following interview Elizabeth Artemis Mourat has shared some
incredibly valuable insights with us! I have confidence that you
will find this interview as riveting as I did! -KD
KD:
How long have you been dancing?
A: I've been dancing all my life because it's part of my cultural
background. I have been formally studying and performing oriental
dance for 25 years.
KD:
How did you decide to take ethnic dance classes originally?
A: I went to a class taught by Adriana Miller in Washington DC 25
years ago and later that night I went to the club where she was
performing. When I saw her onstage, I was smitten with the dance.
At that point I decided that I was going to do that dance, and I
was going to do it on that stage! I spent the next two and a half
years studying very hard towards achieving that goal. I rehearsed
about two hours a day, at least six days a week, and after about
3 years I started dancing at that same club. It became a fascinating
obsession for me. It's funny how one occurance can change a person's
life, but that's exactly what happened. It was my kismet,
my faita.
KD:
Have you studied any other dance forms, and if so, what are they?
A: I've studied some folk dance, jazz, modern and flamenco.
But I never studied any of those art forms with the intent to become
a professional or proficient in them. I simply studied them in order
to expand my movement vocabulary and for fun. Regarding the study
of flamenco, I was very interested in learning more about
Gypsy culture, and this was an excellent opportunity to do so, as
I was living in Spain when I studied flamenco.
KD:
Please tell us more about living in Spain, and why you went there
originally.
A: My Mother has a home on the island of Mallorca so I've been lucky
enough to be able to go to Spain ever since I was in college. I
went to Madrid because a friend of mine was studying flamenco
there. So we stayed together and studied at a studio called
Amore de Dios, which means "Love of God". I took classes
every day and submerged myself in the classes and culture. I later
worked in Spain as an oriental dancer. It is very difficult to make
your living as an oriental dancer in Spain, because they are still
resentful about the Moorish occupation. They tend to lump all Middle
Eastern cultures, whether Arab or not, into one stereotype. So they
do not "warm" to oriental dance in general.
KD:
Who have been among your biggest influences?
A: Two teachers named Yildiz and Pandora. Yildiz learned to dance
in the Turkish oriental style in New York in the '60's. Her travelling
companion was Pandora, who was a Gypsy who also danced in the Turkish
oriental style. They were such vibrant, dramatic and joyful dancers
that I still feel influenced by them!
KD:
Whatever happened to them, Artemis?
A: Yildiz is living in the Puerto Rican rainforest and Pandora seemed
to have disappeared. She went to the West Coast and I'm still trying
to find her! So if anyone knows where Pandora is, please tell her
I'm looking for her! And if you find her, take classes from her
if you can.
KD:
Your literature mentions your "heritage". Please explain.
A: My Father is a Greek from Turkey. People with this heritage are
commonly referred to as "Turkish Greeks". His family was in Turkey
for over 300 years, so they were quite Turkish in culture even though
they were Greeks. Both of my grandparents spoke fluent Turkish and
Greek, and barely spoke English at all. My Mother is from the southeastern
U.S., but was raised in New York and is an American!
KD:
Please tell us how you've managed to acheive an MA in Psychology,
an MSW in social work (with a specialization in cross-cultural awareness),
and postgraduate work in dance movement therapy while travelling
to 33 different countries! You must have been very busy! How many
years do you have invested in these studies?
A: I got my MA in psychology in the '70's and right after that I
did postgraduate work in dance movement therapy at Goucher College
for Women. After that I went to the Busch Gardens in Florida and
danced there at the Moroccan Village for 8 years. I later got an
MSW in Social Work from the University of Maryland in the '90s.
I'd become fascinated with a new area of study called "cross-cultural
awareness" stemming from my interest and respect for other cultures.
I was in the Clinical Program so my emphasis was on mental illness,
family work and working with children and adolescents
As
far as travelling to all these different countries goes, well, I'm
an Army brat! So from a very early age I was able to travel on Army
airplanes to other countries. This was called "Army Space Available."
We were able to cross continents for the cost of the 'K' rations.
We often slept on crates but we didn't care because we got to go
to other countries. My interest in travel never waned and I have
tried very hard to leave the country at least once every year since
I've become an adult. I was fortunate since my Mother has the home
in Spain. It's quite easy to go to other countries in Europe or
North Africa from Spain. I also lived on the road for a couple of
years singing, dancing and travelling.
KD:
You've done extensive research on the history of the veil, ancient
dances of Egypt, and Gypsy dances of Turkey, as well as the origins
of bellydancing. How did you become interested in these topics?
A: I have written manuscripts on these various topics that have
been published or are in the process of being published by various
Middle Eastern dance publications. (KD - they are also available
for sale through Artemis, see article's end.) These manuscripts
also feature many illustrations. So I don't want to go into too
much detail here as it will seem redundant to the avid readers who
have read the material, but it gives me a great deal of pleasure
to know that the dance community is interested in topics that are
related to history. I have always been fascinated by historical
matters- I think I'm a closet archaeologist! Perhaps in my next
life I will incarnate as an archaeologist- I hope that is true!
I became fascinated with the history of dance as soon as I began
dancing.
I
knew that ancient people had danced for spiritual reasons and I
wanted to know more about this. I was thoroughly convinced that
one of the roots of oriental dance was spiritual. I also hoped to
solve the mystery of the"Dance of the Seven Veils". The first thing
that I began researching was the origins of oriental dance. Therefore
I had to look into the dances of ancient Egypt, Greece, Crete, the
Hebrews, the Etruscans, Rome, the Christians and the North African
and Middle Eastern dances. This became such an overwhelming task
that I had to narrow my focus. This was one of the first lessons
I learned as a researcher- to "Define your topic and stick with
it!" So, I focused on the ancient dances of Egypt.
I
also did research on the ancient dances of Greece and eventually
on all of the aforementioned topics. By the time that I began studying
the history of some of the other Middle Eastern and North African
cultures, I learned the second great lesson of good research: "You
cannot become an expert on everything!" I worked on the veil research
for 16 years, because I remained interested in finding the origins
of the "Dance of the Seven Veils". I discovered that there are no
ancient origins to this dance. I was disappointed, but- I guess
the third cardinal rule of research could be: "You must separate
fact from fiction! Only print the truth." I had begun collecting
information on the history of the veil, and after the first 8 years
I compiled the first rough draft. This was about 50 pages long.
I'm not sure what really happened, but I think I felt overwhelmed,
and I wondered whether anyone would be interested in this information.
Somehow it ended up in a xerox box in the top of my closet.
In
the meantime, during the following 8 years, every time I went anywhere
or did research on any other topics, I always collected data related
to the history of the veil. Two years ago a girlfriend of mine,
Roshan, told me that she was going on the workshop circuit and was
planning to teach veil dancing. She asked if she could sell my manuscripts.
I told her that I wasn't finished with it yet. She asked how close
I was to finishing it. I blushed and told her that it lived in the
xerox box that was, by now, spilling over!) at the top of my closet.
So she gently and lovingly told me that I should get off my "sweet
petoot" and finish it, and I did. Now for the fourth rule of doing
good research: "Never, never give up!"
KD:
I would like to discuss some points of interest in regards to your
manuscript, "Gypsy Dancing- Separating Fact from Fiction". Please
give us some of the most important points from that manuscript.
A: In the early '70s the oriental dance population in this country
began becoming educated in the different styles of oriental dance.
Up until that time, people just danced in whatever way they'd learned
from their teachers. There were lots of teachers who danced in the
Turkish style of oriental dance. Some were Turkish women, and some
were first generation American dancers who'd learned from Turkish
women. Then the Egyptian style of oriental dance became popular
and took off like wildfire. This was a good thing- however, many
people who performed and studied Egyptian style became convinced
that this was the only true style of oriental dance. This is, of
course, not true, but these people had very strong opinions on this
subject.
This
changed the face of oriental dance in this country because many
of the dancers who continued to dance in the Turkish style had been
told that they were incorrect, and what they were doing was vulgar
and illegitimate. As a result of this, now if people want to learn
the Turkish style of oriental dance, or the Gypsy dancing of various
countries, it is extremely difficult to find qualified teachers.
There are several reasons for this: first, there aren't many dancers
left from the old days who had learned and continued to dance in
the Turkish style. Many of these women have retired from dance,
and many others had bowed to the pressure of the Egyptian style
dancers in order to conform. Another reason it is difficult to find
qualified teachers is because many people believe that there is
such a thing as "generic Gypsy dance". There is no such thing!!!!!
Unfortunately,
many women think that if they fluff up their hair, wear a full skirt
and dance with gusto, then the dance they do qualifies as a "Gyspy"
dance. This is simply NOT TRUE! What they may be doing is a piece
inspired by Gypsy dancing, or a fusion piece that combines various
styles of Gypsy dancing, or an interpretation of what they think
Gypsy dancing should look like. But what they are doing is not Gypsy
dancing. After all, if an American tap dancer put on a flamenco
skirt and Spanish music and danced while shouting a few words in
Spanish, this would not qualify as a flamenco dance. Which is, of
course, a Spanish Gypsy dance. The same way that a hula dancer
cannot expect to put a tutu on and do Swan Lake as a ballet dancer....
Another reason it is hard to find qualified teachers is because
many, many oriental dancers in this country have learned dances
that have been identified as Gypsy dances or Turkish style oriental
dances from their well-meaning but misinformed teachers. These teachers
had learned from their teachers who'd learned from their teachers
that this was "authentic."
In
reality, if you go back several generations of teachers, you will
see that these people were doing interpretive dance and calling
it authentic. Eventually these dances that looked somewhat like
stereotypes took on a sort of validity simply because they were
repeated and taught by people who were in earnest. It's just like
the "Turkish Gypsy" dances that include dancing with a tambourine.
Some teachers have taught some really great choreographies that
included tambourines. But, in all my years of research, I've found
no written accounts of Turkish Gypsies dancing with tambourines.
There are some pictures of people posing with tambourines, water
jugs, chickens and other props that people sometimes associate with
Gypsies. But they never did dance with tambourines! They danced
with wooden spoons, finger cymbals, clappers and even a "jingling
Johnnie", but not tambourines. Now, I'm not saying that you should
throw out your choreographies that include tambourines- simply call
them interpretive pieces and have a great time! I think it's fine
to thoroughly enjoy the dances you know, but just rename them. If
your costumes are fusion costumes, that's fine. That just means
it's based on several different styles.
It
is possible to fuse your own interpretation of a Gypsy costume from
let's say, Romania, with that fantasy costume you've had in your
mind since you were six years old and always had wanted to wear
on Hallowe'en. Simply call this a fusion Gypsy costume. Another
example is dancing with the skirt. Many Gypsy cultures have dances
which utilize an occasional gesture involving a skirt, such as flamenco.
In Turkish style Gypsy dancing they never use their skirts for an
entire song. Skirt work is an elegant, dramatic and colourful prop
for a theatricalized version of a dance that is inspired by some
Gypsy dances. For example, in the video "Lifting the Veil of Time"
and in some of my workshops, I perform or teach a dance that utilizes
some skirt gesturing. It is important to note that this is not a
specific dance that I've reconstructed from my research on the history
of Turkish Gypsy dance, however. In a way, this is like dancing
with a tambourine- it's fun, visual and thoroughly appropriate for
dancing on a concert stage. The point is to call it what it is!
Kajira, you asked about the old photos and drawings, which I've
already mentioned a little about. Antique pictures of women from
North Africa and the Middle East use a great deal of stereotypes
in their content. I have over 2,000 pictures in my collection and
I have been collecting for 15 years or so. It is amazing how these
stereotypes seem to cross the borders of countries and even continents!
There is often the water jug, the tambourine, the drum, some form
of veil or veils, the donkey carts, the basket of flowers, the chickens
or the babies.
These
are all props meant to create the illusion that these women fit
into the stereotypes that Americans and Europeans believed. There
was also a great deal of blatant sexism and racism in these photographs.
As for the written accounts, when researching these topics, it is
imperative that you know your source! The Victorian minister who
has gone to Cairo to "save the savages from their pagan ways" is
going to have a far different interpretation of the dancers he sees
than the French painter or English soldier. So you must know, whenever
possible, the nationality of the writer, their purpose for being
in the country, how long they were in the country, as well as their
religious and moral belief system. Once you know that, you can understand
their belief system from their own cultural perspective. So remember,
there is no such thing as "generic Gypsy dancing." If you believe
that, you'd have to believe that flamenco dance from Spain is like
kathak dance from India and that those are just like Irish Gypsy
dancing, etc. This is insulting to the Gypsy culture. I really hope
that the readers understand this point. It is like saying that all
Latino cultures are the same, whether they're from northern Spain
or Cuba. If one believes that there is somehow a "generic Latino
culture," then one would be tempted to lump together many very diverse
cultures into one set of stereotypes. Anytime a stereotype is believed
and passed on, the believers dishonour the culture that the stereotype
supposedly represents. For example, if one believes that Gypsies
are happy-go-lucky, childlike, romantic figures that spend their
days lounging by a campfire with music and song, this does not address
the fact that Gypsies are the victims of systematic attempts at
genocide. If we do not recognize that many of them are starving,
that they are excluded from social services, and that at least one
million men, women and children were slaughtered during WWII, then
how can we acknowledge and honour the truth about their lives?
People
often ask me what they can do to help. I would like to say that
help begins in the heart, and the first thing that we have to do
as people who wish to honour and respect these cultures is to examine
our stereotypes about these people. I would like to share an example
from my own personal life. In my family's culture, my relatives
were very distrustful of Gypsies. They had accepted the stereotype
of Gypsies as thieves, cheats and "dirty" people. What they never
realized were several important points. If one barely has enough
food to eat, it can be difficult to find money for soap. If people
are part of a repressed minority, and they are excluded from the
working world because no one trusts them enough to give them a job,
then they don't have a way to make money. One of the dynamics of
repression is that it forces people to do things they would not
ordinarily do. For example, if your children were starving, you
probably would steal. This is a typical stereotype that dishonours
thousands and thousands of Gypsy people who have jobs, work hard,
and are very honest and honourable people. Another thing we can
do is to examine our vocabulary and not use expressions such as
"gypped", as in "I was gypped", because that implies that you were
treated the way a Gypsy would treat you, that you were cheated.
This is a horribly unfair stereotype. Another thing you can do is
to capitalize the word "Gypsy", and better yet, replace it with
the words Rom, Roma and Romany.
KD:
How would you describe your dance style?
A: I do several different types of dancing. There is the style of
dance that I do based on the ancient dances of Egypt and Greece.
I call this "interpretive dance," and it is based on my research
of those cultures. My Turkish Gypsy dancing is based on my research
of the dances that Gypsies did in Turkey from the 15th century through
the 20th century. My oriental dance is primarily Turkish in style,
however I do incorporate some Egyptian style oriental dance movement
into it. I also spice it up with some improvisational material.
A teeny bit of the ancient dance occasionally sneaks in while I'm
performing, too!
KD:
How do you approach choreographies? And how about improvisation?
A: I hate, hate, HATE choreographies! I learn them and employ them
as teaching tools for my students. But I am what I call a "heart,
guts and soul dancer." I am not a cerebral dancer. My dance is initiated
from lower in my body than that. I thoroughly enjoy the freedom
of dancing the way that I feel. I never do the same thing twice-
unless it's by accident. However, I respect and admire people who
do enjoy choreographies. They are an absolute neccessity when one
is attempting to reconstruct and notate the dances of another culture
so as to pass them on to other people. I especially admire dancers
who can put life and light into a choreography that they have done
many, many times before. This is a great skill.
KD:
Your literature mentions a manuscript entitled "The Art of Takseem".
Could you share a little about it for our readers?
A: I have devised a system of techniques that are designed to help
people get more mileage out of their existing dance vocabulary.
These techniques also help them get over that awful "hump" where
they may be dancing and suddenly get "stuck." It is a terrible feeling
on stage to recognize that you've done your 53rd hip circle and
just can't push past it and find something else to do. So I wrote
a series of articles entitled "The Art of Takseem" which talks a
lot about choreography and improvisational dance, what to do when
you freeze, how to communicate with musicians, etc.
KD:
There has been much discussion of late concerning the roots of our
dance. Can you tell us briefly of your findings?
A: I prefer a tree analogy- one with roots, a trunk and branches.
But first, before you can talk about the roots of oriental dance,
it's neccessary to define the topic. If you use a broad definition
to include most of the women's dances all the way across North Africa,
the Middle East and Central Asia, then your conclusion about the
roots of the dance will be quite different than those you will come
up with if you use a narrower definition. If your narrow definition
includes only, let's say, Egyptian style oriental dance, then it
would make sense that a discussion of the beginnings of the dance
would be quite different. I prefer a broader definition, but there
are many fine historians who insist on a narrower one. This narrow
definition may only include "Raks al Sharki". If this is your definition,
then you would have to search into the ancient dances of Egypt,
which fall under seven broad categories. Some of these dances were
religious, and some were not. There were some troubadors who also
worked as midwives and danced. This is yet another root of that
tree. There was also the Gypsy migration which most likely mingled
the Gypsy dancers with the already existing troubador dancers.
The
history of dance in Egypt stretches back many thousands of years.
One cannot correctly and completely discuss the origins of a dance
unless they look at the religious and political history of a region
as well. A discussion of orientale dance in Egypt would not be complete
without recognizing that the ancient Egyptians imported Greek teaching
masters, the invasions by many different countries (including the
Arabs), the trade routes, the wars, the religious revolutions and
modern theatrical influences. And you see, this narrow definition
of Egyptian oriental dance history does not include Turkish oriental
dance history, with the exception of the dance that came to Egypt
from Turkey through wars, trade and occupation. This is why I think
a narrow definition denies the full richness of this ancient art
form. So you see, it is incorrect to make a blanket statement such
as "belly dance is a Mother Goddess cult dance." Goddess cults are
simply another very important root of the tree. As I said, I prefer
a much broader definition that includes farther-reaching geographical
locations. It would take another entire article to describe all
of those roots- I teach an entire workshop on just that subject.
KD:
Please share with us some of the highlights of your dance career.
A: That's a fun question. Dancing in Europe was great fun. It was
very educational because I learned what it felt like to be an "illegal
alien." You see, as an American who is temporarily living in London
or Paris, taking wages away from the local citizens, this is really
discouraged by the government. Therefore its important to get work
permits. We dancers often don't get these permits- I never did.
So it was fun, somewhat adventurous, and I lost money this way-
but I gained an education! Another highlight of my career was when
the Oxford University press asked me to submit illustrations for
their new International Encyclopedia of Dance.
They
asked me to submit pictures of oriental dancers from the United
States as well as antique illustrations of dancers from other countries.
For the U.S. dancers, I sent them photographs of some of my most
beautiful friends as well as some of myself. I was quite shocked
when the committee chose a picture of me for the encyclopedia. So,
when it comes out, if you look up "Orientale Dance", you will see
my picture! What a hoot! I felt honoured, humbled and very, very
amused. The funny thing about that is that I had friends who'd told
me I was crazy to send photos of other dancers; that I should have
only sent my own, or even that I should have sent attractive pictures
of myself and terrible ones of the other dancers! This didn't seem
right to me, so I sent the prettiest pictures I could find of all
of us and decided that this would satisfy my sense of fair play.
The next truly enduring highlight of my career will be the documentary
film on the history of Turkish Gypsies. This will allow me to fuse
my performing persona with the writer-researcher in me.
KD:
Please tell us about your current and future projects.
A: My newest project is a brand new performance video. It is simply
titled "Artemis" and it shows my specialties. My business partner,
Yasmin from Serpentine Communications, and I are also working on
future videos. We will be making Lifting the Veil of Time Vol. 2,3,4
etc.. We are gathering footage for this and will continue to gather
footage in the years to come. We are now working on the documentary
on the history of the Turkish Gypsies I mentioned earlier. Yasmin
thinks this will become a multiple volume set as well, because it
will encompass the history of Gypsies in general which would include
their migrations and Gypsy dances of different cultures. I'm hoping
we can fit it all into one video, but as you can see from this interview,
I always talk too much! (laughter), and I'm really bad at editing
my own work. I always want to include every detail. But what we
will do is a video about the history of the Turkish Gypsies from
the 16th century to the present. This is based on the research from
my book on the same topic. I'm working on the book all the time.
I've already written three rough drafts, and the third is twice
as long as the first two! That is a pretty good indication that
the book and the video will be pretty long. I also hope to do an
instructional video which will include a very complete warm-up,
a dance sequence and a performance section. I'm also interested
in writing an article on how to conduct good research. In the future,
I'd like to write a book on the ancient dances of the Etruscans
and another on the ancients dances of Crete. I'm interested in possibly
doing a documentary film simply based on my collection of antique
pictures of women and dancers from North Africa and the Middle East.
I think that there are enough people within our dance community
who would enjoy seeing these images.
One
of the most fascinating aspects of looking at these antique pictures
is that you can sometimes see women who were first photographed
when they were young girls, then in other stages of their lives.
In some cases you can see them posed later with their daughters,
and then see their daughters growing up. This may sound strange,
but I look at these pictures and some of them feel like old friends.
It used to sadden me to think that everyone in these pictures is
dead. But I soon began feeling that every time I look at the pictures
or show them to someone else, these people live on. I just started
reproducing some of these illustrations (such as the Ghawazee and
Ouled Nail), matting them and selling them myself, as well as through
somw of the vendors.
KD:
Do you have any advice to offer fellow dance instructors?
A: Yes- do your homework. Learn about the history and cultures that
create these dances. Never stop learning or taking classes or workshops.
KD:
Do you have any general advice to offer students?
A: Study with many different people. In the very beginning, it may
be best to study with one teacher, but ALWAYS branch out to learn
from other teachers. If your instructor is jealous of you studying
with others, "get out of Dodge!" Teachers who are possessive of
their students are usually easily threatened because they fear the
superior knowledge of their competitors. Ask your teachers how long
they've been dancing, and who they've studied with. If they tell
you they've been dancing only one year or eighteen months- run,
don't walk, to the nearest exit! Learn as much as you can about
the cultures that create these dances. This includes their history,
textiles, poetry, cuisine, music and art.
KD:
What do you see as the future of oriental dance in America?
A: All dance is a living, breathing, evolving art. This is great.
I believe that oriental dance is no exception to this rule. However,
we must have our dance ethnologists. We must have people who have
learned the original dances. Once one has learned the original dance,
one can use this as a springboard for fusion or improvisational
dance. I think there's a place for everything. We need purists who
perform dances in an unadulterated style, or who perform ethnic
dances from North Africa and the Middle East. We also need people
who are fusing various forms of dance, as this too is a part of
the evolution of dance. All of these art forms are valid. It is,
however, extremely important that dancers use solid, articulate
technique in whatever dance forms they do.
KD:
Do you have any advice for others who may be planning a trip abroad?
A: My advice would depend entirely upon the traveller and the country
to which they were going. If you are an experienced traveller, there
are still some countries I wouldn't recommend for women to explore
alone. If you are an inexperienced traveller, I would strongly advise
you not to go anywhere alone. And regardless of your past history
as a traveller, my advice is to do your homework before you get
near the plane. What I often do when travelling is to read a great
deal about the country before I go there. Then I take index cards
and write on them phonetically the typical sentences that you may
need. Things like: "please, thank you, hello, goodbye, how much?,
that's too much, do you have any more?, bigger, smaller, various
food items, where is the toilet?, where is the hotel?"etc. On another
index card I make a conversion table that converts the local currency
into American dollars on one side and vice versa on the other. I
keep that in the pocket where I keep my "chump change". I keep my
passport, traveller's cheques and airline tickets in a wallet around
my neck inside all of the layers of my clothing. This way I don't
have to touch my most valuable possessions every time I want to
buy something inconsequential. Lastly, dress modestly and carefully.
Understand the culture you are going to and call the least amount
of attention to yourself as possible.
KD:
How do you stay in shape? I see you have even written a series of
articles on health and fitness.
A: I agree with Marilu Henner that it's important to "break a sweat
every day"- whether this means you're taking a walk or dancing,
is not the most important thing. I believe in a low-fat diet with
lots of fruits, vegetables, chicken and fish, as well as whole grains
and very little red meat. I am not the type who can eat a salad
without salad dressing on it, so I try to use my fat grams judiciuosly
by not wasting them on lots of sweets and red meat. But I must emphasize
that I am not a purist, and I break these rules often. One the fascinating
things about the human body is that if you're really good to it
most of the time, you can splurge occasionally and still be in great
shape.
*This
interview has been an educational experience for myself as a writer,
and I wish to thank Artemis for sharing so openly with all of us.
I hope you have enjoyed reading it as well, and that you have learned
something new within its pages.
*Artemis can be contacted at the following address for information
regarding ordering her various manuscripts and articles. She also
has available for purchase wonderful, authentic Turkish Rom (Gypsy)
music and oriental music on cassette, videos, and other items. Elizabeth
Artemis Mourat, 2945 Woodstock Ave., Silver Spring, MD 20910-1249
Be sure to tell her "Kajira sent you!"
~end~
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